Mereja Forum

[DefendTheTruth]

I heard a certain western country intellectual (who also used to be a law-maker in his country's parliament at sometime in his life span) comment the following word for word, before a number of years:

"Capitalism is based on 3 pillars, which are Production, Consumption and Accumulation/Wealth and as such can only be realized based on Exploitation of the natural resources or the rest of the human beings, which means", he said, "that it can also be as such not sustainable."

If capitalism is not going to be sustainable, then I am not sure what will going to happen to the human race whose existence is based on the base support of capitalism itself.

I thought about this comment after referring to to a Wikipedia entry on Taylorism at the following link today:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management

You may think this is perhaps the old way of doing business before you would read the likes of following sentences in the same article:

Google's methods of increasing productivity and output can be seen to be influenced by Taylorism as well.[40] The Silicon Valley company is a forerunner in applying behavioral science (ref: Dan Pinks Motivations of Purpose, Mastery and Autonomy) to increase knowledge worker productivity.

Like you may also know Google and its parent company Alphabet is among the few (perhaps 4 or so) private companies in the world, which reached the threshold of 1 trillion US Dollar market value very recently in the whole of modern business history in the whole of the world.

[Afdeyu]

History is a big teacher for those who want to excel in life, and capitalism is the vehicle to prosperity for all.
The other...isms sound fair and well intentioned has failed miserably ever where practiced with their products being poverty, dictatorship and wars.
China is prime example adapted capitalism and free trade after their dictator died, and look at them now after 40 yrs of capitalism and free trade = prosperous
It’s not perfect but better than all the other...isms tried before.
I’m a practical person and Failed ideology is for losers
So the question should be which one works instead of what it’s... Issu drank the cool aid of socialism is the root cause of all the Eritrean suffering and that even his closest camaraderie’s are destined to live in poverty... sad life to see a war hero relative— colonel begging me for money so he can send his kid from Kampala to Europe...why??? luck of capitalism and free trade

Sesenayu

[Abere]

Let's be optimistic about the future of humanity. Capitalism is just a social system as there were many systems humanity had under went. I am positive the future holds more good than the present. As you pointed out, human labor is one of the factors of production and creation of wealth. The frontier of science in robotics, artificial intelligence, ( generally of revolution information technology) is affecting labor in terms of both its quantity and quality. In the corporate business world cutting labor cost is deemed essential to maximize their net income. Labor cost (wage or salary) accounts at least 60 percent of their operating cost - this magnitude is as significant as the cost of the materials of finished goods or services. Thus, the challenge should be anticipated more from automation as it affects the livelihood of the society. Society certainly find ways on to harness the new order to deliver economic equity to all. But at this time, countries like our Ethiopia have to focus how to get their house in order. The country is neither capitalist nor socialist, neither feudal nor capitalist, the country is going anarchy. A few get rich not they earned it but robbed the country through the corruption infrastructure. People are praying for their daily bread not accumulate or horde wealth.

[DefendTheTruth]

History is a big teacher for those who want to excel in life, and capitalism is the vehicle to prosperity for all.
The other...isms sound fair and well intentioned has failed miserably ever where practiced with their products being poverty, dictatorship and wars.
China is prime example adapted capitalism and free trade after their dictator died, and look at them now after 40 yrs of capitalism and free trade = prosperous
It’s not perfect but better than all the other...isms tried before.
I’m a practical person and Failed ideology is for losers
So the question should be which one works instead of what it’s... Issu drank the cool aid of socialism is the root cause of all the Eritrean suffering and that even his closest camaraderie’s are destined to live in poverty... sad life to see a war hero relative— colonel begging me for money so he can send his kid from Kampala to Europe...why??? luck of capitalism and free trade

Sesenayu

I think it is good that you brought up the case of China here, because, in my understanding of the topic here, it clearly presents a case for what the scholar I referred to said: unless it exploits it can't also sustain itself.

I think then it was not a mere coincidence that China embarked on Capitalism and then after it was already there, where this exploitation is possible (easily or favorably), especially in Africa. I think you will not tell me that it is in Africa out of altruistic mission over there (to share its prosperity with the people of the continent).

(I heard recently that many African countries are already getting over-suffocated by the burden of China's debt on them, or similar message).

There is an Amharic saying which goes like አልጠግብ ባይ ስፈሳ ያድራል። And this seems to be the case with capitalism and its sustainability, as far as I understand it.

The issue people have got with capitalism, as I understand it, is that not if it can bring prosperity or not, it is instead the idea that, unless it exploits it can't sustain itself. There is a difference in the two, I think.

[Afdeyu]

I think you are generalizing and pulling one sentence from what somebody said to make your case that it’s not a good product... there are good and bad with any ...isms, but at end of the day... the good outweighs the bad of capitalism through out history...
Again, learn from history and don’t copy and paste but make it work for your specific society
The failure of many Africans is trying to copy and paste but that doesn’t work...because every society is different. Any system that works for China/Israel/Vietnam/Eritrea doesn’t mean it’ll work for Ethiopia or vice versa...
The best way is Ethiopian version of capitalism/ free trade/ that is compatible with the local norms/traditions, and learn from others to avoid the bad side of capitalism... at the end of the day there’s no perfect...ism, but you’ll be better off using the good parts of the most successful...ism.

Wedehankum
Sesenayu

[Guest1]

ካፒታሊዝም ሲባል ሁሉም የሚበለጽግበት? ቀልደኛ ክክክክክክ
1. ከ2ኛው አለም ጦርነት ብኋላ ሁሉም መሰረታዊ ፍላጎቱ የተሟላለት(ቤት፤ ምግብ፤ ህክምና፤ ትምህርት) አዲስ ካፒታሊዝም ነው።
2. የድሮው የአንድ አገር ካፒታሊዝም የለም!! አለም አቀፍ ካፒታሊዝም/ግሎባላዜሽን/አዲስ ኢምፔሪያሊዝም እናሳምረውና የተሳሰረ ኢኮኖሚ ነው። መሪዋም አሜሪካ ናት።
3. የአለም አቀፍ ካፒታሊዝም አባል አገሮች ካናዳ አውሮፓ ራሺያ፤ ቻይና፤ ታይገር ኢኮኖሚስ የሚባሉት በኤዥያ እና ጃፓን። ሌላው ወደ ካፒታሊዝም መሸጋገር ያቃተው ነው።
4. ጃፓን እንዴት ስለጠነች? ራሺያና ቻይናስ እንዴት ሰለጠኑ breaking the link በሚባለው ንድፈ ሃሳብ፤ የፕራይቬታይዜሽን ተቃራኒ ወይም በnationalisation ወደ ካፒታሊዝም ተሸጋግረዋል።
5. በተለይ ከ2008 ብኋላ ምዕራባዊያን ኢኮኖሚያቸውን ‘ማኔጅ’ ማድረግ ወይም እዳውን ለቀጣዩ ትውልድ ማስተላለፍ ችለዋል። ባንኮችና ትላልቅ ካምፓኒዎች ሲከስሩ መንግስት ገንዘብ ያሸክማቸዋል። አንድ ጓደኛዬ ከልቡ ድሮ የሰራተኛው አብዮት ነበር ከሃብታሙ ነጥቆ ኢኮኖሚውን የሚገነባው አሁን ግን ሃብታሙ ከሰራተኛው ነጥቆ ስለሆነ የከበርቴ አብዮት ነው የተካሄደው ክክክክ)። ህዝብ ብድሩን ይሸከማል። ስራው ይቀጥላል። አሁን ኮቪድ ያስተማራቸው ነገር ገንዘብ አትመህ ለህዝብ ማደል!! ሳይታተምም በፕላስቲክ ካርድ ማደል። ስለዝህ አለም ለተወሰነ ጊዜም ቢሆን በአሁኑ አደረጃጀት ተቀናቃኝ ሳይሆረው መቀጠሏ የማይቀር ይመስላል።

ይህም ስለሆነ ካፒታሊዝም ብልጽግናን ያመጣል ይባላል ክክክክክክ። እውንታው ምንድነው? የአፍሪካ አገሮች ርካሽ ጉልበት መበዝበዣና፤ ርካሽ እቃና ቆሻሻቸውን የሚራገግፉበት፤ ጥሬ ሃብታቸውን የሚገብሩበትና በቢልየኖች የሚቆጠር እዳ የሚከፍሉበት አለም ትቀጥላለች ማለት አይደለም? ይህን ነው የምትመኘው?
የምን free trade? ክክክክክክክ

[DefendTheTruth]

I think you are generalizing and pulling one sentence from what somebody said to make your case that it’s not a good product... there are good and bad with any ...isms, but at end of the day... the good outweighs the bad of capitalism through out history...
Again, learn from history and don’t copy and paste but make it work for your specific society
The failure of many Africans is trying to copy and paste but that doesn’t work...because every society is different. Any system that works for China/Israel/Vietnam/Eritrea doesn’t mean it’ll work for Ethiopia or vice versa...
The best way is Ethiopian version of capitalism/ free trade/ that is compatible with the local norms/traditions, and learn from others to avoid the bad side of capitalism... at the end of the day there’s no perfect...ism, but you’ll be better off using the good parts of the most successful...ism.

Wedehankum
Sesenayu

I think that what the scholar said is a kind of postulate and tried to summarize in a precise short sentence.

Now the burden of proof is on our side, to prove the claim is wrong.

You said it brings prosperity and I said that could be possible (at least for some, but please not for all) and indicated the issue here is not about that alone. It is more about its sustainability and something which is not sustainable has always an attached risk, at some point down the road.

But could you also say about how many capitalist nations you know currently around the world and their prosperity scale at the global level?

[TGAA]

History is a big teacher for those who want to excel in life, and capitalism is the vehicle to prosperity for all.
The other...isms sound fair and well intentioned has failed miserably ever where practiced with their products being poverty, dictatorship and wars.
China is prime example adapted capitalism and free trade after their dictator died, and look at them now after 40 yrs of capitalism and free trade = prosperous
It’s not perfect but better than all the other...isms tried before.
I’m a practical person and Failed ideology is for losers
So the question should be which one works instead of what it’s... Issu drank the cool aid of socialism is the root cause of all the Eritrean suffering and that even his closest camaraderie’s are destined to live in poverty... sad life to see a war hero relative— colonel begging me for money so he can send his kid from Kampala to Europe...why??? luck of capitalism and free trade

Sesenayu

I think it is good that you brought up the case of China here, because, in my understanding of the topic here, it clearly presents a case for what the scholar I referred to said: unless it exploits it can't also sustain itself.

I think then it was not a mere coincidence that China embarked on Capitalism and then after it was already there, where this exploitation is possible (easily or favorably), especially in Africa. I think you will not tell me that it is in Africa out of altruistic mission over there (to share its prosperity with the people of the continent).

(I heard recently that many African countries are already getting over-suffocated by the burden of China's debt on them, or similar message).

There is an Amharic saying which goes like አልጠግብ ባይ ስፈሳ ያድራል። And this seems to be the case with capitalism and its sustainability, as far as I understand it.

The issue people have got with capitalism, as I understand it, is that not if it can bring prosperity or not, it is instead the idea that, unless it exploits it can't sustain itself. There is a difference in the two, I think.

Here's my two cents' worth: Has ever existed a system that devoid of exploitation? Name one. Man by nature is exploitative. In the Bible "In Genesis 1:28 we have God’s command to man to subdue the earth and have dominion over it." Exploitation is unavoidable, the point of an argument should be how a man should exploit nature and each other in the process of doing so. As long as we have a means to consciously limit the excess of capitalist greed, it is more fitting to human nature than any of the other systems. The capitalism of Yore years was ugly and dehumanizing, to be truthful the communist stiff resistance had ameliorated capitalism to be more humanistic than it could have been otherwise. There is no reason why it wouldn't revert back to its old self unless it is checked. Thus constant vigilance is needed .

[DefendTheTruth]

History is a big teacher for those who want to excel in life, and capitalism is the vehicle to prosperity for all.
The other...isms sound fair and well intentioned has failed miserably ever where practiced with their products being poverty, dictatorship and wars.
China is prime example adapted capitalism and free trade after their dictator died, and look at them now after 40 yrs of capitalism and free trade = prosperous
It’s not perfect but better than all the other...isms tried before.
I’m a practical person and Failed ideology is for losers
So the question should be which one works instead of what it’s... Issu drank the cool aid of socialism is the root cause of all the Eritrean suffering and that even his closest camaraderie’s are destined to live in poverty... sad life to see a war hero relative— colonel begging me for money so he can send his kid from Kampala to Europe...why??? luck of capitalism and free trade

Sesenayu

I think it is good that you brought up the case of China here, because, in my understanding of the topic here, it clearly presents a case for what the scholar I referred to said: unless it exploits it can't also sustain itself.

I think then it was not a mere coincidence that China embarked on Capitalism and then after it was already there, where this exploitation is possible (easily or favorably), especially in Africa. I think you will not tell me that it is in Africa out of altruistic mission over there (to share its prosperity with the people of the continent).

(I heard recently that many African countries are already getting over-suffocated by the burden of China's debt on them, or similar message).

There is an Amharic saying which goes like አልጠግብ ባይ ስፈሳ ያድራል። And this seems to be the case with capitalism and its sustainability, as far as I understand it.

The issue people have got with capitalism, as I understand it, is that not if it can bring prosperity or not, it is instead the idea that, unless it exploits it can't sustain itself. There is a difference in the two, I think.

Here's my two cents' worth: Has ever existed a system that devoid of exploitation? Name one. Man by nature is exploitative. In the Bible "In Genesis 1:28 we have God’s command to man to subdue the earth and have dominion over it." Exploitation is unavoidable, the point of an argument should be how a man should exploit nature and each other in the process of doing so. As long as we have a means to consciously limit the excess of capitalist greed, it is more fitting to human nature than any of the other systems. The capitalism of Yore years was ugly and dehumanizing, to be truthful the communist stiff resistance had ameliorated capitalism to be more humanistic than it could have been otherwise. There is no reason why it wouldn't revert back to its old self unless it is checked. Thus constant vigilance is needed .

I think it is good that you have brought up the quote from The Bible (The Holy Bible). I am not someone that is (well) versed in the contents of The Bible but I still would wonder myself if the Holy scripture would allow (suggest) a human being should exploit another fellow human being. The same is true with nature and its resources (means of production).

The other important point that caught up my eyes in your reply is also where you suggest about "limit" but I think, as I understood it, the main problem is that it defies the concept of limit, because it is based on unrestrainedness as its foundation (production, consumption and accumulation, all unlimited).

It is not in its nature to have a certain limit and that seems to be where people are getting a trouble with it.